22nd October 2024
bbc.co.uk/accessall
Access All – episode 129
Presented by Emma Tracey
EMMA- Hello, and welcome to Access All,the BBC’s disability and mental health podcast. I’m Emma Tracey, and this time,I want you to prepare for some celebrity chat. I am talking to singer and PopIdol star Gareth Gates, and ex-Labour cabinet minister turned Strictly starturned TV presenter, Ed Balls, and we’rechatting all about stammering. 22 October is International Stammering AwarenessDay, and according to a poll by British charity Stamma, about 3 per cent of usstammer. This interview is full of absolutely fascinating details aboutstammering and about Ed and Gareth. For example, did you know that there aretwo different types of stammer? I did not. They also give us some tips ongetting past those blocks that happen when you have a stammer. It’s reallypositive, upbeat, interesting, charming chat, and I really, really hope youenjoy it. Y
MUSIC- Theme music.
EMMA- What do Emily Blunt, King GeorgeVI and Ed Sheeran have in common? Now, you might not know this but they allstammer. Stammering is a neurological condition which impacts your speech.People who stammer might struggle to say certain words or get stuck on a sound.Now, last year Gareth Gates and Ed Balls were on Good Morning Britain on ITVchatting about how having a stammer impacts their lives, and now they’re hereto talk to me. Hi both.
ED- Hello.
GARETH- Hello.
EMMA- Hello. It was more than just achat for you Ed though, wasn’t it?
ED- It was really emotional.And I never quite know when talking about stammering is suddenly going to catchme by surprise. And I was saying to Gareth that he was one of the very firstpeople with a stammer who I saw talking about it and succeeding with it.
EMMA- And Gareth, what was it likebeing a role model for Ed Balls? [Laughter] he used to be the shadowchancellor.
ED- He’s appalled by the idea!
GARETH- I try to mention my speech and my stammeras often as I can, and it’s for that very reason. Lots of people come up to meand say, you inspired me to never hold back, I share the same affliction as youof stammering and yeah, you kind of broke the mould as it were. And I try to dothat as often as I can because if you can reach one person and help to changeone person’s life then it’s all worth it I guess.
EMMA- Yeah, your appearance on Pop Idolhad a massive impact on me and my friends and everyone at that time. Gareth,what’s your first memory of stammering?
GARETH- I’ve always stammered, from utteringmy f-first words it was tough and it was difficult. And growing up was very,very hard; being different in a classroom is hard. I’d have bullies on top ofme in the playground saying, well let’s beat the words out of him and, youknow, those scars still stick with you. But fortunately I found another outlet,I found that music meant I could get the words out of my mouth and I couldfinally express myself, so that became my s-saving grace really. It wasextremely tough as a child but I’m very, very fortunate that I found music Ithink.
EMMA- And you talked about the strugglethat you had at school on Who Dares Wins, which is an amazing show where guestsgo through SAS training. Here’s a clip of that:
[Clip]
GARETH- Um, for me, um, um, um, um, um,growing up was hard. Um, um…
STAFF- What, family life you mean?
GARETH- No, no. School, um, you know, havinga stammer, um, school was hard. [Starts crying] Come on, god, just, oh, um,verbally abused.
[End of clip]
EMMA- Are you angry about what happenedto you as a child, Gareth?
GARETH- No, I’m, I’m not angry. Um, you know,it’s, it’s hard to hear that, it really is, and, you now, to go back there. Butit’s made me the person I am now; it’s made me the stronger, much m-moreresilient person that I am now. And in a sort of odd way I’m the other side ofit, I’m actually quite th-thankful that I went through that hardship as a child.
EMMA- Yeah. Ed Balls, there are twotypes of stammering, aren’t there? I mean, I didn’t know this but there are.
ED- There are and I didn’tknow that either. Mine’s what they call a covert or an interiorised stammer.So, Gather’s is an overt exteriorised stammer, which means he st-st-st-stammerswhen he speaks, it’s public and verbal. Whereas mine is what very many peoplehave which is more like a block. So, when you’re speaking sometimes, andespecially if you’re under pressure or you are in an exposed situation or ifyou are speaking publicly suddenly the words [pauses] don’t come and you blockon your words. And inside there is a big stammer happening but it’s notsomething which you can hear, but it’s something which the stammer it isringing loudly in your ears this thing which is happening. And I didn’t findout that I had this interiorised stammer until I started to do national media,Any Questions, BBC News channel, Channel 4 News, and then in parliament as ajunior minister once I was elected as an MP. And sometimes it would just gowrong and I couldn’t get the words out and I’d get stuck.
EMMA- You definitely had somechallenging moments whilst speaking in parliament, including former PrimeMinister David Cameron being kind of less than kind:
[Clip]
ED- The chancellor hasconfirmed government borrowing is revised up this year, next year and everyyear. The national deficit is not rising…uh, uh, uh, is rising [mockinglaughter and jeering], not falling. The national debt is…
DAVID- And with innovative ways of usingour hard-won credibility which we wouldn’t have if we listened to the mutteringidiot sitting opposite me [mocking laughter and jeering].
[End of clip]
EMMA- That’s really hard to hear,particularly the second half of it. Did David Cameron apologise?
ED- No, he didn’t apologise.And he also on a different occasion kind of suggested that I had Tourette’sSyndrome as well. I think he just didn’t understand what was going on, and hewould hear those things now and be hugely regretful. Part of my journey was,um, to, to go public. It took me a long time to decide to do that, to start tospeak publicly. I needed that for myself because that would relieve thepressure, if I knew that if people knew I had a stammer that made me lesslikely to stammer. The fact that you know I have a stammer means that I’m lesslikely to stammer in this interview. But that is also about other peoplestarting to understand what’s really happening. And I think in life with anykind of disability or difference sometimes when people don’t understand andthey’re a bit bewildered and they might be a bit embarrassed, and as a resultthey sort of try to front that out with bravado. And I think that that was whatwas going on there. And I think once David Cameron knew I think he did act in avery different way. But it took quite a lot of years for him to, to understandthat.
EMMA- Yeah, which is hard going foryou. Do you think things have got better?
ED- Well, they certainly gotbetter for me because I went public, and I spoke to the Speaker of the House ofCommons. In the first instance when I was there it was John Bercow. And I hadletters from MPs apologising. The trouble with an interiorised stammer is thatthey don’t always understand, so they can think that you are not confident orthat you’ve forgotten or that you have been destabilised.
One of the worstmoments for me, actually that day in the House of Commons when I stammeredduring my response to George Osborne’s Autumn Statement, and that evening NickRobinson, the BBC political editor who knew I had a stammer, said on the 10o’clock news that some Conservative MPs were saying Ed Balls wasn’t confidentin his arguments. And I rang him and said, ‘Nick, it’s my stammer, you knowthat. You can’t call that a lack of confidence. I’m not nervous’. And the nextmorning in this very building Sarah Montague, presenting the Today programme, Iwas down the line in Millbank, and she said, ‘Lots of your own side would havethought you weren’t confident, you were losing the argument’, and I had thismoment and I thought, I can’t, I can’t accept this. So, I said, ‘Sarah look, Ihave a stammer. Sometimes I’m not fluent, especially when I’m being yelled atby 300 people. But I’m not going to apologise for that. It’s part of who I amand I’m carrying on doing my job as best as I can’. I came out of the Todayprogramme studio, I thought why have I said this. I was in tears. Five minuteslater I’m back on BBC Breakfast going through the same thing. And it was asearing experience actually, but I had such a massive response of peoplesaying, you know, good, say it, speak up, it's what we want to hear, we want tounderstand. And I think as a consequence of those times not only did I gettreated differently I hope, as Gareth was saying, that we contributed to peoplemore widely starting to understand what this thing called a stammer is andmaybe people are less likely to hector or bully or scorn now than they mighthave been ten years ago.
EMMA- Are there times, Gareth, whenyour stammer is more pronounced and times when it’s less pronounced?
GARETH- Yeah. If I’m stressed, if I’m tired,in more stressful situations. Obviously l-live on TV is, is, is hard for me attimes. The more that I do it it becomes more of a comfort zone, so I try to pushmyself to do interviews more or things like this, which is very, very easy toturn down but I, I try to be as f-forceful on myself. I’m part of a speechtherapy programme called The Maguire Programme, and they teach that the onlyway for the f-fear to go down is to face that fear head on. On the course thatwe go on we have to go out and introduce ourselves to 100 people out on thestreet, 100 strangers; which for anybody is hard work, you know.
EMMA- It sounds stressful!
GARETH- Yeah, it really is. Then we have todo public speaking in the m-middle of the town centre. It’s only by forcingyourself to do things that you f-fear the most, you know, that you can start toget a grip and a hold of this, this thing that’s controlled you for all your,you know, for all your life.
EMMA- I mean, you have a speech coachin your eyeline in this room.
GARETH- I do.
EMMA- Is that not seriously stressful?What is he doing over there in the corner?
GARETH- [Laughs]
EMMA- Do you know what I mean? You haveto think about him, you’re thinking about us, you know.
GARETH- He’s constantly waving at me to slowdown. My default is to speak too fast and to try and race over my words. But I,I find that that often trips me up. He’s, he’s, he’s here because he’s part ofthe same programme I’m on, and just having him present reminds me of what Ineed to be doing and techniques that I’m supposed to be using.
EMMA- But is it not easier to be morenatural than to be trying to use techniques all the time?
GARETH- I can guarantee if he, if he wasn’there I’d, I’d have barely got out one sentence [laughs].
EMMA- Now, when you sing you don’tstammer the song. Could you not just sing your way through life, you know, justsing your interview questions?
GARETH- Yeah, well I’ve never struggled with,with singing. But I haven’t had the negative association with singing as I’vehad with my speech. I’ve always had a great reaction to singing whenever I’vesang. And often as well when we’re on stage we adopt a different persona. WhenI’m on stage and I’m singing I’m G-Gareth Gates the popstar, Gareth Gates thesinger and, you know, wearing that mask often helps. I’ve, I’ve done lots ofWest End shows where I’ve, I’ve had to learn script and, and acting where I’mplaying a different character. You know, there’s never an issue with my speechthere either.
EMMA- Really? So, if you’re sayinglines there isn’t…?
GARETH- Yeah.
EMMA- And I hear you spoke to RowanAtkinson, another stammerer about this and about speaking roles in musicals,what did he say to you?
GARETH- He just told me and encouraged me to,um, to never give up. And, um, you know, he cast a bit of insight on, you know,when he plays a role he’s absolutely fine because he’s not, um, h-himself. Ifind it hard to talk about myself, but in a, in a character if I’m walking in adifferent way, breathing in a different way, embodying somebody in a differentway I’m fine with my speech which is, which is odd.
ED- Definitely.
EMMA- Is that the same for you whenyou’re in character, Ed? I mean, you’re not an actor, but being a politician oran ex-politician, and being a presenter as well, there’s kind of characteracting in that.
ED- There was a TV show in the1980s with Jon Pertwee called Worzel Gummidge, and Worzel Gummidge was ascarecrow and he had different heads: he had a happy head, a sad head, an angryhead. And I think in life, even when we’re being ourselves, you have to get theright head on. It’s not easy if you’re a politician to go up to people youdon’t know in the streets and say hello and introduce yourself. It’s not easyto stand up in front of thousands of people and make a speech. But you have tohave the right head on. You have to have the this is the period when I’m goingto be the outward facing external projecting person. And all of us have I thinkoften a shyness and a diffidence. And if that self is the person trying to makethe speech or to say hello to people it’s going to be hard. So, you put on yourperforming head, your public head, and you know you can take it off in a bitand have a bit of a rest. And I don’t think that is any different if you are apopstar or an actor or just a person in their normal life: if you are needingto do a presentation at work, or if you are needing to speak up at a parents’meeting it’s not an easy thing to do, but we all learn to put on the head whichallows us to be that for that period. And I think for a stammerer that’s just adifferent way of doing the same thing: you put on your speaking head for a bit.
EMMA- What happens if even in thosesituations you have a block? What are your strategies then for moving forwardfrom that, like maybe on stage or in parliament or whatever?
ED- I have loads of techniqueswhich I use. And any time I do something for the first time it’s hard. I alwayswant familiarity. I always want to arrive at a venue ten minutes before andspeak to people first. I use lots of launch words; I like to start a sentencewith, ‘Look Emma, the important thing is…’ I want to get myself moving. I can’tstand any sentences which start with an H if I have to read them out. The Bibleis very hard to read because you can’t change the words. And when I feel ablock coming along, and I do all the time, I’ve learned to have the confidenceto think it’s going to be fine, I’m going to ride this, and then I’ll just waitand then carry on. And I’ve learned that people aren’t going to notice that.Whereas before I was public and before I knew how to do that when I felt theblock coming on I would panic and tauten up, and you could see it in my face.And that was when I became stressed and other people became stressed. The otherthing is I always know now that I can say, ‘Sorry about that, a bit of a block,I’ve got a stammer’. And the fact that I know I can say it and I’m not worriedabout saying it, and if needed to I just would, is hugely relieving ofpressure, which means I don’t have to say it. Whereas in the time when Ithought I had to cover it up, I’ve done so many BBC interviews with John Sopelor with Laura Kuenssberg, when I wasn’t public about my stammer, and when Iwould block I could see the fear in their eyes because they’re thinking,‘What’s happening? Why is he doing this?’. Whereas the fact that I now believein my mind they know I’ve got a stammer means that I’m not going to worry aboutit and therefore I worry them less.
GARETH- I think taking ownership is a huge,huge thing, and every time I do an interview I always do exactly the same as Eddoes. I t-tell them, ‘Look, I’m constantly working on my speech here, andthere’s a strong possibility in this interview I might stammer’. And by takingcontrol of that and taking ownership of that it, it just massively lowers thefear.
EMMA- And does it affect people’srelationships as well, and I suppose dating and all that as well?
ED- I’m not sure about dating[laughter]. I think I was already married before…
EMMA- Did it affect you when you weredating, Gareth?
GARETH- Yeah. I mean, trying to chat up agirl is, is hard work [laughter]. Yeah, it was always very, verynerve-wracking. I’d go on a date and, like, oh, just sort of hope for the best.
EMMA- Did you have Chris at the nexttable, your coach, doing your miming in the restaurants?
GARETH- [Laughs]
ED- Slow down, Gareth. Talkabout her family, ask her, ask her…
GARETH- Exactly [laughter]. I s-sent him homebefore I took her home though [laughter].
ED- I know there’s times whenfor a period I’ve not done something because I thought maybe I can’t. I said ano initially to Good Morning Britain because I thought with my stammer I won’tbe able to do the autocue. But when I decided that’s ridiculous, have a go,roll the dice, I found, you know, not perfectly, but I can. You need as aperson to have the confidence to say I’m going to try things which are hard andI’m going to be public about telling people this may be bumpy at times, butactually it’s going to be worth it for you. But that requires your manager,your employer to also think that’s okay. So, if you don’t have a supportiveenvironment I think it’s much harder to do what we’re saying to people…
GARETH- True.
ED- …which is to be yourselfand be open.
EMMA- And Gareth you’re pushingforward; what’s going on for you in the near future?
GARETH- I’ve actually recently written amusical, which is all about stammering. It’s called Speechless. I, I thinkwe’re about a year off until we actually see something on the stage. But I justwanted to try to educate people on what having a st-stammer really is like, youknow, and the mindsets that come with that, you know, and the way that it doeskind of craft and mould you into the person th-that you are. So, yeah, I’m…
EMMA- That sounds like a lot of fun.And actually one of the things we didn’t talk about was humour. Have you gothumorous musical songs about stammering now?
GARETH- Yes. There’s a s-song that I’vewritten and it st-starts with a guy that can’t say words beginning with B, sohe’s, like, b-b-b. Then there’s a girl that can’t say words beginning with C soyou get the b-c-b-c-b-c.
EMMA- Oh, so the bee-bop thing.
ED- I can see where you’regoing with that.
GARETH- Then you get a guy who can’t saywords beginning with T, so you get the higher, so [rhythmically] b-c-t, b-c-t,b-c-t. So, this whole song is created by people that can’t speak. And that’sthe sort of comical part of the show, and that’s one of many songs.
EMMA- It sounds brilliant, doesn’t itEd? Can we go when it comes out?
ED- Look, this is a bit of arevelation for Gareth, so I don’t just want to go, but one of the greattragedies of my life, one of my great disappointments is that I was askedwhether I would like to play, after I’d done Strictly, the Teen Angel role inthe [pouring] show of Grease, singing the Frankie Valli song Beauty SchoolDropout. And I said no, and I’ve always regretted it. They got Jimmy Osmondinstead.
EMMA- Is this true?
ED- Totally true. And I’vealways thought to myself, there was one point where the BBC were talking aboutwhether I would do a show called Balls to Broadway where I would go and showthat as a total amateur you could play the wizard in Wicked or the king inHamilton, that kind of role where you don’t have to be a great singer. So,Gareth if you need somebody with a stammer who’s willing to come along, notnecessarily with great singing skills, but who will give it their all?
GARETH- Ed, you’re hired.
ED- No way! I’m in [laughter].
EMMA- You heard it here first, kids,you heard it here first.
ED- Excellent. You’ll have towrite me a role.
GARETH- Would you wear tights?
ED- I’ll wear anything youwant. I mean, if I’m on the stage whatever. Have you not seen some of thethings I’ve worn?
GARETH- Yes, yes, I have.
ED- Oh come on, whatever youwant, Gareth.
GARETH- That’s brilliant.
EMMA- That is absolutely brilliant. Andif you need a blind character with no acting skills that would also be finewith me.
GARETH- Okay, great.
EMMA- A little sabbatical I’m sure.
GARETH- Amazing.
EMMA- Well, from the cast of Gareth’snew musical, Gareth Gates, Ed Balls and myself, thank you very much.
ED- Great to be here. Thankyou very much.
MUSIC-
EMMA- I think you can tell that I had amighty fine time with Ed and Gareth, they were totally charming guests. Listen,if you have something to say about this or anything else, you can contact us inall the usual ways. You can email accessall@bbc.co.uk, or you can go on thesocials, Instagram or X and find us:@BBCAccessAll. You can send us a message, a voice or a text, onWhatsApp, just put the word ‘Access’ before it, our number is 0330 123 9480.You can subscribe to us if you haven’t already, just go to BBC Sounds, searchup Access All and hit that big ‘subscribe’ button, please do. See you nexttime. Bye.
[Trailer forNewscast]
MALE- Newscast is the unscripted chatbehind the headlines.
FEMALE- It’s informed but informal.
MALE- We pick the day’s top storiesand we find experts who can really dig into them.
MALE- We use our colleagues in thenewsroom and our contacts.
MALE- Some people pick up the phonerather faster than others.
CALLER- Hello?
FEMALE- We sometimes literally run aroundthe BBC building to grab the very best guests.
MALE- Join us for daily news chat.
FEMALE- To get you ready for today’sconversations.
MALE- Newscast, listen on BBC Sounds.
